I'm Georgene Huang, CEO and co-founder of Fairy Godboss, and this is Fairy Godboss Radio. Hi, and welcome to Fairy Godboss Radio. My name is Georgene Huang, and I'm the co-founder of Fairy Godboss, the largest career platform for women, and I'm so excited today to have a conversation with Anne Phelan, who's the Vice President of Product Management at Publicis Sapient. Welcome, Anne.
Hi, Georgene.
So today we're going to have a conversation that spans your career advice and lots of good stuff that our audience is very eager to hear about. Why don't we get started by you telling us about your career journey. What do you do today and how did you get there?
Yeah, sure. So unfortunately over a long period of time, because I've got 20 plus years experience of my career to date, I'm currently, as you said, Vice President for Product Management at Publicis Sapient, and what that means is I'm responsible for our team who support and help our clients going through digital business transformation, but I'm also responsible for working with our clients within our retail and consumer product space. As I've said, I've got 20 plus years experience, although I've only ever worked with three organizations to get to where I am today. I started out graduate program when I left my bachelor course, and I started with a food retailer over in the UK. The branding is similar to an organization you have in North America called Safeway, but they're a grocer, equivalent to a Walmart, I suppose, at the time. I was with them for five years, was a computer programmer, decided I wanted to understand the problems and the opportunities that people wanted to solve rather than just solving them. So I moved to a fashion retailer over in the UK where I worked with them for a long time around digital and what that meant for them, solving the problems that we had as an organization. I, in a way, lost my way with Debenhams to a certain extent, and by that I mean after eight and a half years of working with them, I didn't believe in them as an organization anymore. The main thing for me was actually I delivered everything that I could do for me personally, and I've progressed in a way that made me happy. The day I decided to look for another opportunity, I actually got an off-chance ping or a LinkedIn message from Publicis Sapient, we were called Sapient Nitro at the time, a company I'd never heard of saying, we're interested in you, do you want to have a conversation? And the rest is genuinely history. I've been with Publicis Sapient for eight and a half years. I have progressed and had opportunities that were beyond my wildest expectations. I have been successful with the team that I've grown, but also really lucky with the people I've worked with as well to help me on my journey, but enabling me to help them on their journey to get what they want as well out of their careers.
Thank you for sharing that. I'm quite familiar with those companies because I lived in the UK for about five years and also have a product management background, so I can appreciate your desire to go from engineering to product and being closer to the customer and the end user. You sort of described these three positions over 20 years. It sounds like getting the ping from Publicis Sapient was an important turning point in your life, but were there other ones that you think mattered quite a great deal in terms of your career and what are some of the most important decisions that you made?
Yeah, career-wise, yes. I suppose that first pivotal point making that decision of going away from technical engineering and using an opportunity of a company that was being bought out and knowing that I would eventually lose my job, so I'd be made redundant, and taking an opportunity to test the market on what I could do based on the experience I had. I was only four and a half years into my career at that point. I never thought I would go into engineering. I always thought I would go into the business part of business, so whether that be marketing or HR to some extent as well, or people success depending on your terminology that you want to call it, but I thought I'd be involved in the running of business and participating in that rather than the enabling of business, and I was unemployed for five months while I was trying to find an organization that believed that I could do that next stage that I wanted to go to rather than having to take a sideways step to go down the route I wanted to go. And it's a tough thing to make career change, especially early on, even though they were still closely aligned because it's still technically engineering to a certain extent. You know, as product people, we talk about people, process, technology, and data, and if you've got that understanding and that appreciation of those four things to drive that forward, then that really helps. But at the time, this was 16 years ago, product didn't exist as a work, as a job. Product was something that you bought from a store. It was something that you kind of felt and touched, not necessarily something that you enabled because of how you thought and how you could go forward. So that was a really big turning point for me in my career. I think another turning point was when I joined Publicis Sapient, or what was Sapient Nitro at the time. The place I joined from a company perspective was a small part of the organization. We were called Business Consultants. It was a small team in the UK. We didn't have the presence across EMEA as such. We only had it in Germany and a very small team in the Nordics as well. And about three years into the role I was playing, I was having a conversation with a line manager of mine who was an excellent line manager, and he said to me, he said, I'm going to cease to exist as part of the business, not in a bad way. It's like we're evolving. We were evolving, we were rebranding ourselves. This is what it's going to look like. We'd done lots of acquisition. We'd grown to a certain extent. And he said to me, he said, I want you to lead what will become product for the UK or product management for the UK. And how do you feel about that? Now, this was four and a half, five years ago. I'd just got married. I knew that we were going to be trying for a baby. I suffer from huge imposter syndrome. And I have to ask him if he was asking me because he thought I could do it or because he thought that actually I was going to tick a box because I was a female. And there's not many females who are in that position to do that, to which I was told I was particularly stupid for thinking like that. And why would I ever be asked to do something that they didn't think I could do? And I think that was a pivotal point for me because up until that point, even though I led and I led by example and I really wanted to drive what was right for us as an organization and our people, but also for our clients, I never realized actually the value that I could add was appreciated by others within the organization. To be asked to lead something that you don't necessarily have the knowledge in across all of the verticals or the industries that we work in is actually a fantastic element of pride that you can have yourself. So to be able to elevate myself to a leadership perspective that was showcasing what we could do to work globally to understand what we needed to shape and change and direct for our people and ensuring that everybody has the right opportunity and then having that platform for that voice was a great pivotal moment for me.
Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that with all the candor and congratulations on the role and getting married a few years ago. You mentioned imposter syndrome, so I'm just going to ask, I assume that gender you feel has played some role in your career?
Yeah, definitely. So I'm laughing because gender plays a role in my career, but gender played a role in my upbringing as well. So I'm from a very traditional background, mom, dad, but I'm also one of eight siblings. And my dad was a very traditional man in females had certain roles and males had certain roles. And that's basically how he was brought up. He was a child of the Second World War. And that's the way that people were then. And I think that I'm number six in an orchestra of eight, and I've got three older brothers, all of which went down the business route, went down the technology, went down a career that wasn't necessarily a people career or a caring career, which is what the females in my family have done. So I've got a sister who's a head teacher, and I've got a sister who's a social worker, and both of them do amazing work shaping and guiding people who need support and need help. But I decided early on that actually, I didn't want to go down the route that was traditionally my family. I know it's a strange thing to say, and it's probably a strange thing to hear. But when I told my dad and my mom what I wanted to do, well, I did a degree in psychology and criminology. So nobody really knew what I wanted to do. But when I wanted to go down the business route, the questions I was asked was, but are you sure? What does that mean? It's not a vocation. And I was challenged every step in a way that my brothers never were. So I think that element of gender was ingrained in me from early on, partly to prove a point, but also because I wanted to see the opportunities that were out there. As I've kind of gone through my career, it's interesting because I've always been engineering focused or technology focused. It is a very male dominated part of work. And I've been through stages where I've been told something isn't possible or where I've acted in the same way as somebody else. There's somebody else who would beOr this is what I think I'm going to do. What do you think? Is there any other advice you can give? And I think that when you're mentoring people, it's important, for me, it's important to understand exactly what they want to be mentored for. So there's a couple of people who talk to me and want to be mentored because they're working moms. It's as simple as that. And they want to understand what does that mean for them in their career, whether it's their first child and they're just starting to tell people that they're expecting, or it's that they're starting to expand their family. What does it mean? By becoming a working mom, does that mean that I have to stop with my career? Or actually do I, as I turned it to somebody who's just was going on maternity leave last year and she's just come back, I said, don't think of maternity leave as an elongated break from work, a leave from work. Because yes, it is. But actually when people think of you and what you do at work, it's as though you've just been on a really long weekend break because all they compare, what they do is you were here up to a certain day, then you weren't here, then you're back. So they expect you to do what you did before. And that's how exactly it should be. Not that, oh, you know, Georgene's been on maternity leave, therefore she's forgotten everything that she's ever done. That's not how work should be. And it's about also not just coaching and supporting people who come to me for advice, but also people who they have to work with. And, you know, as we're going through this period of change and what working from home, hybrid working, flexible working, all of that, what that entails. So I speak to some people and coach and mentor some people around that. But I also, I always forget, and again, imposter syndrome, I've come a long way in actually a relatively short space of time. So four years ago, I got to a senior position in the organization. I got to director, but in four years, I've gone from director to senior director to VP. And actually, what does that mean? What are the things that you need to be thinking about in a male dominated organization? What are the things that you need to do to break those boundaries to, you know, to smash through that glass ceiling? And I often forget, and maybe I do myself a disservice as a result of that. But I coach and mentor people around the opportunities that are available. So that's not just to say that it's a job, therefore it's a role that you can apply for. It's actually, this is what you've been asked to do. Don't just think about the direct task. Think about what that means, the value that adds. How can you move that across and add additional value to the clients that we work with or the team that you're working with as well? And I think that's really important. The biggest thing for me is making sure that everybody has the same opportunities available to them. Whether they know they're there or not is a different matter, but nobody gets prohibited for going for something because of any reason whatsoever. And that's super important, something that really goes through everything when I'm working with people from a mentoring and coaching perspective.
Thank you for sharing that. I want to turn to the last few years. You mentioned this just now that we've gone to remote, hybrid, flexible, different kinds of ways of working. But the past few years have also been incredibly challenging. Some of the flexibility can be challenging to navigate actually. And so are you doing anything differently as a result of the past few years? And what advice do you have for our listeners on how to persevere through the tough moments?
It's strange. If I think back to pre-having children, I was traveling with work probably three times a month. You never thought twice about jumping on a plane, jumping on a train and going from New York to London to Hong Kong in three days, which has happened a number of times. And you just did it. You never thought. And that was also pre-children. I think the key thing that I've noticed in the difference is this way of working has affected everybody. It's impacting everybody, whether you realise it or not, whether you want to do it or not. This whole new way, for want of a better term. And as it's affecting everybody, then actually it becomes easier to navigate because you don't feel like you're having to justify the fact that you are going to work from home today because it's easier because the trains aren't running, for example, and you can't do that commute. Or my current situation, my eldest son will be going to what we call in the UK primary school. So he's just turning four. So we are having to go and look at schools that we want to apply to for him. They're only tours available during working hours. But previously it would be like, right, I need to really schedule it in. Whereas now I think I'm going to work from home that day. It's an hour out of my day. I can manage that. That's fine. And I think it's a mindset shift yourself around the fact that you manage your own schedule. Hopefully if you're lucky or you shouldn't be lucky, everybody should take a lunch break. But whether you take that lunch break at 10 o'clock in the morning because I need to go and look at a school or if you're taking that lunch break at two o'clock in the afternoon because that's when you want to eat, it shouldn't matter when you take that break away. And actually, you should be stepping away from your day-to-day work and your day-to-day tasks to have that mental break from it anyway. And I think that's the key thing with this flexible, hybrid, fluid, however we term this way of work that is now the norm is make it work for you. Obviously don't annoy people with what you're doing and lean in where you need to lean in, but do ensure that you also make it work for you.
Right. I also have a four-year-old son and just this morning on the train, I was late to booking the parent-teacher conference. Of course, all the working parents took the first slots of the morning already. Up in there. I decided that was going to be a work from home day for me.
Yeah, don't blame you. And actually speaking of which, that goes right into the last topic I wanted to discuss with you, which is so many women, as you mentioned, even turn to you at work about work-life balance or how to balance family and work questions. How do you do it? I mean, you mentioned having sacred time at the end of the day. Do you have any advice for someone who is concerned about how to do this and concerned about how to achieve? Balance is a word that I struggle with, but how to do the different things and address the different parts of your life?
I think the first thing that I would say to anybody is don't beat yourself up about whatever it is you decide to do, because whatever it is that you decide to do, you do because it will work for you and your family. And that is super, super, super important rather than it working for somebody else. I question my one sanity, but also, Georgine, you've probably gone through this as well. Am I doing the right thing by working as many hours as I'm working? Am I doing the right thing by putting my children in daycare? I've been questioning myself all the time, but I look at how happy my two children, two boys, one's one and one's turning four, I see how happy they are every day. I'm lucky that I work Monday to Friday. If I work at weekends, it's my choice to work at weekends. My weekends are really sacred time with my boys. I focus on doing that. I focus on when I'm with them, having fun. And every so often you're doing a team chat or a work WhatsApp or a work email when they're there. But actually, I also want them to see that it's normal to be on a call and working and talking to somebody through a video screen. I want them to see that normality from their mom, not just from their dad. I dropped my boys off this morning and one of them said, are you working today, mommy? I said, yes, I work every day, darling. And he said, oh, but daddy works from home. Where do you work? And it's interesting because when he's in the house, I'm making sure I'm focusing on them. Whereas if my husband's doing childcare pickup, he will run and get them and he may have to come back and jump on a call. Whereas I'll sort out what I need to sort out with them. But he associates working from home with his dad. He doesn't associate working from home for me because he doesn't often see me do that. But I also want to normalize it. I want him to grow up realizing that anybody can do whatever they want. But yeah, the biggest advice is do not beat yourself up. Don't, and it's really easy to challenge yourself and question yourself, but what's important is that your family's happy.
Yeah, absolutely. There's no one size fits all to how to do this. Okay, we've covered some really serious stuff. And so we're going to lighten it up a little with some fast questions. Number one, what's your favorite karaoke song?
If it was my choice, I'm going old school back to the 1980s and it is Katrina and the Waves and Walking on Sunshine. If it was my children's choice, it would be The Wheels on the Bus.
I love it. Okay, number two, what's your favorite way to practice self-care?
I recently got back into exercise. I used to run an awful lot and children took over and couldn't fit in PE kit anymore. So I stopped doing that as much, but I've recently really got back into exercise and just having that hour a day where it's focused